This is excellent! I am having to read it a few times as there is a lot of views and thoughts, and have some of my own to post later.
But before that, where do we go from here? How do we open these comments up for wider debate, and how do we action ways forward? — Matt CareyJul 27, 13:26
I have tried to make a excerpt of the survey in my introduction:
1. They would like a trade organisation with real power.
2. They want to attend conferences about type, whether it is organised by ATypI or not.
3. They intend to do the minimum to actually help-out themselves.
About 1. think we should tried the reverse than we have done in ATypI. Contact key others organisations, potential sponsors, key actors in the Type scene, then asking what they want to see and what they can provide in exchange. Then, built ATypI or a New ATypI based on that.
So, perhaps, a more indeep survey can be interesting thing to do too.
In same time, I think that small survey can be usefull for future new elected board members to help to see where ATypI should go or not go? — jfpJul 27, 13:52
“The Code Morale’s failure to have any impact on Book Antiqua was very discouraging. Zapf’s resignation was always a tragic low point.”
So is Frutiger a thief and pirate?
Adrian Frutiger: Right from the beginning, I was convinced that Avenir is the better Futura.
Akira Kobayashi: I share your opinion.
So why can Linotype “rip off” Futura and nobody complains but when Monotype did the same with Palatino it is a different story?
“The Code Morale. Font thieves & font pirates should be expelled and not be readmitted.”
ATypI members take existing fonts and modify them for their Corporate clients so they will not have to pay license fees. If we take out these members we’re not left with many.
And do we really believe that all fonts that are released on MyFonts.com and other sites are created from scratch? — Nigel HamiltonJul 27, 18:27
I know this is a dangerous thing to start, but Avenir is not by any means a Futura clone, Nigel.
Now that I have that off my chest, it is clear that ATypI has outlived its existence as a club of typesetting equipment manufacturers. The Code Morale has been abused so often and by so many that it barely has a meaning any more. All we can really do is try to play nice with each other (like grandma used to say). I think that ATypI can be a good place to exchange opinions on such matters as well as to expose the Harveys of the world (ask me off-list if you don’t know who I mean).
The annual conferences are wonderful opportunities to get together. TypeCon is also great but seemingly US-centred. Couldn’t ATypI and SoTA join forces? — Jay RutherfordJul 27, 19:47
jay—atypi and sota joining forces. now that is interesting. :)
atypi does europe one year, sota america the next. both under the umbrella of one organisation.
having seen some of the images and heard reports of typecon2004 it seems like sota is putting the fun back into type conferences, at least in the states. — Matt CareyJul 27, 21:25
I would love to see ATyp*I do a bit more outreach to design students and others interested in type but perhaps not professionals (and also perhaps not nearly wealthy) by offering a sliding scale for registration and membership.
It would be terrific if those who benefit the most from type sales were somewhat more responsible for integrating the marginal folks into our community. Obviously many big foundry owners and others who have commercial interests do this already by employing young & otherwise marginal folks and through things like Linotype’s annual contest. But I think a sliding scale for meeting reg & membership would formalize this a bit more and would send a consistent message to attendees and members that we are ALL part of the same community, and we are all responsible for it as a whole. — Joshua Lurie-TerrellJul 27, 22:40
ATypI does support students, Joshua: membership for students is just $25, and they only have to pay between $200 and $230 to register for the conference!
That being said, I still haven’t taken advantage of this, and become a member (please don’t hate me)… — Dan ReynoldsJul 28, 15:39
Dear Jean-Francois,
I’m glad you did the ATypI survey. I did not attend Vancouver and won’t attend Prague because 1. I do not have the funds in my current situation, and 2. if I had the funds I am dismayed at how the organization has been run since Batty became president (and now his wife is the treasurer which compounds the lack of accountability).
Here are some of my quick thoughts on ATypI:
1. it or something like it is needed. Type designers, users, educators, etc. need an international group as a way of meeting each other and sharing information. Just because one has already met everybody in the group doesn’t mean such a group is no longer needed. There will always be new people in the field of type.
2. it would be nice to keep ATypI going because it has name recognition and familiarity. But I feel that it also has too much historical and financial and organizational burdens to keep it from being properly remade. As someone in your survey accurately said, ATypI has been dead since 1990 (or at least 1992). What we need is to use it as a starting point for making a new organization.
3. the organization should do the following:
a. establish a registry and inventory of typefaces
b. propose standards for those making type. This will be a help to newcomers entering the field. The standards should be aimed at helping fonts be professional in quality.
c. keep a list of pirated fonts. And there should be criteria published as to what constitutes a pirated font.
d. organize small forums (actual meetings not online discussion groups) for type designers and manufacturers to discuss technical issues; for educators to discuss pedagogical issues; and for type designers to discuss marketing and other issues; etc.
e. to organize a general conference every 2 years that not only rotates between Europe and the United States / Canada but also includes for once South America, Asia, the Middle East.
f. that would work with other type organizations like TDC, STD, SOTA, on common issues.
The new type organization should be based in Europe (how about Holland?) and have a 50% of the time director. Who will pay for this? This is the biggest problem now that the old type foundries are dead and the new ones are much too small financially.
Possible ideas on raising money:
1. collect a small fee (say $50) for each typeface registered. maybe even ask for more money ($100?) and give back half to those faces that are legal and keep it all for those faces that are challenged as pirated.
2. Set several levels of membership fees reflecting the types of activities offered:
a. type designer/manufacturer at the top level with the amount based on a percentage of employees (so that Microsoft pays far more than Typofonderie Porchez for instance; how about $250 for the first employee and $100 for each additional one?)
b. type educators and users (art directors, designers, etc.) at the next level down (how about $150?)
c. students (how about $50)
d. type afficionados (eg. book dealers, design historians, etc.) (how about $100?)
e. tangential businesses (eg. computer manufacturers, printer manufacturers, etc. who need type but do not design or manufacture it) (say $1000 regardless of size).
I think that ATypI should reconsider the timing of its conference. September/October is the beginning of the school year which makes it difficult for educators and students to come. I would urge late May or early June after many schools have ended (at least in the USA) or possibly January (cheap to travel and many US schools have a month break, but the weather may be a deterrent to attendees). The small forums should be like the old Working Groups. No fancy amenities, just a place to gather and someplace to crash. These should be limited to qualified people within each area (so no students with the type designers and no manufacturers with the type educators—unless invited).
I hope these ideas are useful.
Ciao e bonsoir,
Paul — Paul ShawJul 30, 09:43
Questions overview
Do you think ATypI has a use/function?
No.
What doesn’t work at all in ATypI?
It doesn’t say anything to me.
Could you live without ATYPI?
Yes
If not, what can you do to help keep it alive?
Make it more practical.
If not, do you think there is a need to create an similar international organisation?
Only if it was more practical.
Could you live without an annual international type conference?
Yes
Any other comments?
The question ‘…how do we help keep it alive’, suggests ATYPI is all but dead. If it is, I’m not surprised.
I’m a graphic designer who likes lettering and creates fonts for both business and pleasure.
What do I need from the type industry?
1. Compatibility (a single font format that works across all apps and OS’)
2. Practical information and tutorials.
Before it was closed to non-members, the ATYPI forum was little more than the élite of the type industry talking amongst themselves. That’s fair enough, but it discourages others and most of the conversations were too opaque and programmer-oriented to be of any use.
If fonts just worked. more people would be encouraged to experiment with type. This would create more interest in fine typography and, maybe, ATYPI as well.
So what does ATYPI actually do?
The ATYPI web site looks really good. It talks about ‘promoting fonts’ and ‘encouraging typography’, but if we pay our subs, what do we get for our money? Do the experts offer any practical help? Are there any tutorials? For example;
How do the experts letter-space their fonts?
How do you hint a TrueType font?
How do you actually use the OT FDK?
I’ve never been to a type conference. I’d like to meet other type designers, but I don’t want to sit through long meetings where experts air their opinions and talk shop. I also don’t want to listen to type industry representatives hyping their latest products, but if they use multimedia presentations, why not save them as QuickTime movies, put them on line and make them available to everyone? Alternatively, why not film the presentations with a DV camera and put them on line with links to background/source material?
We can all learn from the experience of others. The problem is, the type experts are keeping the secrets close to their chests!
If ATYPI is not intended to provide practical help, what is its purpose? If it’s just a networking device, why not hire a hotel for a couple of days and provide a bar? Make a small nominal charge to cover costs and let the attendees get together. They could bring along their PowerBooks and create instant brainstorming sessions. It could be fun.
9 Commentaires "ATypI Survey 2004"
But before that, where do we go from here? How do we open these comments up for wider debate, and how do we action ways forward?
— Matt Carey Jul 27, 13:26
1. They would like a trade organisation with real power.
2. They want to attend conferences about type, whether it is organised by ATypI or not.
3. They intend to do the minimum to actually help-out themselves.
About 1. think we should tried the reverse than we have done in ATypI. Contact key others organisations, potential sponsors, key actors in the Type scene, then asking what they want to see and what they can provide in exchange. Then, built ATypI or a New ATypI based on that.
So, perhaps, a more indeep survey can be interesting thing to do too.
In same time, I think that small survey can be usefull for future new elected board members to help to see where ATypI should go or not go?
— jfp Jul 27, 13:52
So is Frutiger a thief and pirate?
Adrian Frutiger: Right from the beginning, I was convinced that Avenir is the better Futura.
Akira Kobayashi: I share your opinion.
So why can Linotype “rip off” Futura and nobody complains but when Monotype did the same with Palatino it is a different story?
“The Code Morale. Font thieves & font pirates should be expelled and not be readmitted.”
ATypI members take existing fonts and modify them for their Corporate clients so they will not have to pay license fees. If we take out these members we’re not left with many.
And do we really believe that all fonts that are released on MyFonts.com and other sites are created from scratch?
— Nigel Hamilton Jul 27, 18:27
Now that I have that off my chest, it is clear that ATypI has outlived its existence as a club of typesetting equipment manufacturers. The Code Morale has been abused so often and by so many that it barely has a meaning any more. All we can really do is try to play nice with each other (like grandma used to say). I think that ATypI can be a good place to exchange opinions on such matters as well as to expose the Harveys of the world (ask me off-list if you don’t know who I mean).
The annual conferences are wonderful opportunities to get together. TypeCon is also great but seemingly US-centred. Couldn’t ATypI and SoTA join forces?
— Jay Rutherford Jul 27, 19:47
atypi does europe one year, sota america the next. both under the umbrella of one organisation.
having seen some of the images and heard reports of typecon2004 it seems like sota is putting the fun back into type conferences, at least in the states.
— Matt Carey Jul 27, 21:25
It would be terrific if those who benefit the most from type sales were somewhat more responsible for integrating the marginal folks into our community. Obviously many big foundry owners and others who have commercial interests do this already by employing young & otherwise marginal folks and through things like Linotype’s annual contest. But I think a sliding scale for meeting reg & membership would formalize this a bit more and would send a consistent message to attendees and members that we are ALL part of the same community, and we are all responsible for it as a whole.
— Joshua Lurie-Terrell Jul 27, 22:40
That being said, I still haven’t taken advantage of this, and become a member (please don’t hate me)…
— Dan Reynolds Jul 28, 15:39
I’m glad you did the ATypI survey. I did not attend Vancouver and won’t attend Prague because 1. I do not have the funds in my current situation, and 2. if I had the funds I am dismayed at how the organization has been run since Batty became president (and now his wife is the treasurer which compounds the lack of accountability).
Here are some of my quick thoughts on ATypI:
1. it or something like it is needed. Type designers, users, educators, etc. need an international group as a way of meeting each other and sharing information. Just because one has already met everybody in the group doesn’t mean such a group is no longer needed. There will always be new people in the field of type.
2. it would be nice to keep ATypI going because it has name recognition and familiarity. But I feel that it also has too much historical and financial and organizational burdens to keep it from being properly remade. As someone in your survey accurately said, ATypI has been dead since 1990 (or at least 1992). What we need is to use it as a starting point for making a new organization.
3. the organization should do the following:
a. establish a registry and inventory of typefaces
b. propose standards for those making type. This will be a help to newcomers entering the field. The standards should be aimed at helping fonts be professional in quality.
c. keep a list of pirated fonts. And there should be criteria published as to what constitutes a pirated font.
d. organize small forums (actual meetings not online discussion groups) for type designers and manufacturers to discuss technical issues; for educators to discuss pedagogical issues; and for type designers to discuss marketing and other issues; etc.
e. to organize a general conference every 2 years that not only rotates between Europe and the United States / Canada but also includes for once South America, Asia, the Middle East.
f. that would work with other type organizations like TDC, STD, SOTA, on common issues.
The new type organization should be based in Europe (how about Holland?) and have a 50% of the time director. Who will pay for this? This is the biggest problem now that the old type foundries are dead and the new ones are much too small financially.
Possible ideas on raising money:
1. collect a small fee (say $50) for each typeface registered. maybe even ask for more money ($100?) and give back half to those faces that are legal and keep it all for those faces that are challenged as pirated.
2. Set several levels of membership fees reflecting the types of activities offered:
a. type designer/manufacturer at the top level with the amount based on a percentage of employees (so that Microsoft pays far more than Typofonderie Porchez for instance; how about $250 for the first employee and $100 for each additional one?)
b. type educators and users (art directors, designers, etc.) at the next level down (how about $150?)
c. students (how about $50)
d. type afficionados (eg. book dealers, design historians, etc.) (how about $100?)
e. tangential businesses (eg. computer manufacturers, printer manufacturers, etc. who need type but do not design or manufacture it) (say $1000 regardless of size).
I think that ATypI should reconsider the timing of its conference. September/October is the beginning of the school year which makes it difficult for educators and students to come. I would urge late May or early June after many schools have ended (at least in the USA) or possibly January (cheap to travel and many US schools have a month break, but the weather may be a deterrent to attendees). The small forums should be like the old Working Groups. No fancy amenities, just a place to gather and someplace to crash. These should be limited to qualified people within each area (so no students with the type designers and no manufacturers with the type educators—unless invited).
I hope these ideas are useful.
Ciao e bonsoir,
Paul
— Paul Shaw Jul 30, 09:43
Do you think ATypI has a use/function?
No.
What doesn’t work at all in ATypI?
It doesn’t say anything to me.
Could you live without ATYPI?
Yes
If not, what can you do to help keep it alive?
Make it more practical.
If not, do you think there is a need to create an similar international organisation?
Only if it was more practical.
Could you live without an annual international type conference?
Yes
Any other comments?
The question ‘…how do we help keep it alive’, suggests ATYPI is all but dead. If it is, I’m not surprised.
I’m a graphic designer who likes lettering and creates fonts for both business and pleasure.
What do I need from the type industry?
1. Compatibility (a single font format that works across all apps and OS’)
2. Practical information and tutorials.
Before it was closed to non-members, the ATYPI forum was little more than the élite of the type industry talking amongst themselves. That’s fair enough, but it discourages others and most of the conversations were too opaque and programmer-oriented to be of any use.
If fonts just worked. more people would be encouraged to experiment with type. This would create more interest in fine typography and, maybe, ATYPI as well.
So what does ATYPI actually do?
The ATYPI web site looks really good. It talks about ‘promoting fonts’ and ‘encouraging typography’, but if we pay our subs, what do we get for our money? Do the experts offer any practical help? Are there any tutorials? For example;
How do the experts letter-space their fonts?
How do you hint a TrueType font?
How do you actually use the OT FDK?
I’ve never been to a type conference. I’d like to meet other type designers, but I don’t want to sit through long meetings where experts air their opinions and talk shop. I also don’t want to listen to type industry representatives hyping their latest products, but if they use multimedia presentations, why not save them as QuickTime movies, put them on line and make them available to everyone? Alternatively, why not film the presentations with a DV camera and put them on line with links to background/source material?
We can all learn from the experience of others. The problem is, the type experts are keeping the secrets close to their chests!
If ATYPI is not intended to provide practical help, what is its purpose? If it’s just a networking device, why not hire a hotel for a couple of days and provide a bar? Make a small nominal charge to cover costs and let the attendees get together. They could bring along their PowerBooks and create instant brainstorming sessions. It could be fun.
Ian
— Ian Blair Aug 2, 16:58